13 replies to this topic

[sigmfsk]

I see that this car
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles-sale/11018-usa-1977-royal-monaco-brougham-440-pennsylvania.html
has an air-cleaner intake hose going over to the left of the battery (pic 1 and 2).

It's interesting that it has an orange Cop dual-snorkel air cleaner, and interesting that one side of the snorkel was left open to the air, while the other had an air intake hose, but I was mainly interested to see where the air intake hose led.

Pics from the seller show that the hose connects to a fitting on the radiator yoke (pic 3), and there appears to be a similar fitting on the passenger side (pic 4). Maybe the passenger side isn't a full large diameter circle; I can't really tell.

My '74 doesn't have either of these holes/fittings (pic 5 and 6).

On later model Monacos, are both holes used, or just the driver side? It looks like the hole on the passenger side is used for a wire, which would preclude its use for air intake. Looking at the pic of a 76 Monaco, it looks like just the driver-side air intake was connected (pic 7). So 74 is no-air intake, 76 & 77 are driver-side intake only, and 75 is ?

Has anybody ram-air'd their engine, either by cutting holes in the radiator yoke, or using a later model radiator yoke?

Notice my sophisticated use of the term "radiator yoke". I first thought it was called a radiator support. Here:
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles-sale/10887-usa-1976-royal-monaco-colorado.html#post113765
I state that a radiator support was identical in 1974 and 1976 (based on information from Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market while doing research for this thread:
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles/10905-car-part-com-interchange-between-74-77-monacos.html

and after seeing this 77 air-intake, I thought to myself "clearly this radiator support is not the same from 1974 through 1976, because you couldn't use a 1976 no-hole support on a 1976 that required the air-intake-hose hole". But I see in the 1976 parts catalog that the radiator support is just a small bracket - the large piece with the air hole is the "radiator yoke" (pic 8 )

But my Hollander shows that a 74, 75, 76, and 77-royal Monaco all used a "562" Radiator Core Support. And it even has a little tiny picture of the "raidator yoke". So this makes me think that a
- Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market "radiator support"
- MOPAR parts catalog "radiator yoke"
- Hollander "radiator core support"
are all the same thing.

So even though I don't know how a 77-royal Monaco with air-intake hose could use a radidator yoke from a 74 because it wouldn't have the correct air-intake fitting, it seems that it will actually bolt to everything. I'm thinking of using a later year yoke, because
1) mine's not in great shape
2) maybe I'll RAM air the engine, with smooth radius metal pipe instead of accordion plastic hose.

Anybody done that? I probably won't go to the RAM air extreme, but it's fun to think about.

On a related note, there's a thread about wide-angle vs. narrow angle orange cop dual-snorkels here:
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles/10047-angle-between-440-dual-snorkels.html

your friend in part swapping analysis,
arthur

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[TK826]

Looking through my notes, I found a few things.

You'll notice that the snorkels without a hose (the more familiar model)
has an opening that is a narrow oval.

The models with a hose have a large circle opening.

* It's a easy way to see if the car originally had a hose, when none is present.


Of all the '74 photos that I have... None have the large air hose.

The '75 photos show that none have the hose... with the exception of
one car which does.

'76 - Each and every one of them has the hose.

'77 - Is opposite of 1975, because all of them do have the hose... with the exception of
one car which does not.


Of course this is only based on the notes I've collected over the years
(and is limited to cars that I actually have photos of the engine compartments).


Edit:

* I also found no photos of a car with a double hose.
All have been drivers side only.

** Single snorkel, double snorkel, 360, 400, 440... none of those factors seemed to make a difference, where the air hose is concerned.

.

[TK826]

... And then there is this Washington car that went all out.

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[sigmfsk]

Great info, TK.

I found this site selling an air cleaner intake hose:
AutoShepherd | Dorman Air Cleaner Intake Hose | DOR:96086

that shows it fits a 76 & 77 Monaco, but not a 74 or 75 Monaco. The picture is a little weird, but it seems to provide a hint as to what years used an air cleaner intake hose.

And I check RockAuto Auto Parts I get lots of hits for air cleaner intake hoses for a 76 or 77, but sparse hits for a 74 or 75.

So I'm thinking that due to noise or emission limitations, the setup was changed for everything to use a single driver-side hose in 1976.

Here's a guess to the cars in your research:
74 : all factory no-hose radiator yoke / no-hose / air cleaner oval air-intake opening

75 : same a 74, but the one car with a hose had a factory 76 setup (an early 76 model). Surely the owner of a 75 wouldn't install a hose if it didn't come with one originally, especially if the radiator yoke didn't have a connection for it.

76 : all factory hose radiator yoke / hose / air cleaner circular air-intake opening

77 : same as 76, but the one car without a hose had been changed after the factory by an owner to remove the hose and use a 74 or 75 oval air cleaner oval air-intake opening

The 74 parts catalog doesn't list an air-cleaner intake hose (pic associated with that area attached). I ordered a copy of a 76 Mopar Parts Catalog so that I could best determine what parts are swappable from 76 to 74. I'll check out what it shows for the hose setup.

And then I can start work on the Washington super-hose setup! That's outrageous!
thanks,
arthur

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[TK826]

This is the '77 that does not have it.

http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles-sale/7985-usa-1977-dodge-royal-monaco-police-clone-kentucky.html
(Photo #1 below)



Edit:

The second photo is of the 1975 that does(?) have it.

I was basing my observation off of the round opening on the air cleaner.
But, that cleaner looks a bit too shiny, compared with the rest of the engine.

Maybe it is a replacement from a later year.


.

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[Ghostbluesman]

TK826 said:

... And then there is this Washington car that went all out.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ.....
Rob

[Bagman]

One of the real police car Monacos from CEVS (not a 74), had a 440 with side snorkel hose thing. I noted it with a few pictures, but they look the same as the ones from the OP.

[sigmfsk]

The Monaco seems to do a stunningly poor job of sealing the radiator against the incoming air flow.

The bumper/grille is sealed against the radiator yoke for a good portion of its length (pic 1 - indicated in blue, and pic 2), but the air coming in through the grill can spill off the ends and down to the road (pic 1 - indicated in red, and pic 3).

And the seal against the radiator yoke isn't that great - there's a huge air gap (pic 4).

But I guess there's enough airflow, in the right places, that it must do a fair job of cooling.

After looking for the best place for a cool air intake, something in the area of this roll of paper towels seems good (pic 5). It's right in the cold air flow, but doesn't obscure the radiator, and is protected from water splashes. And it happens to be the same size as this filter:
889605SPE : hpR Performance Air Filter - 6" I.D. at StylinTrucks.com
that flows 1885 CFM (pic 6).

With the charcoal cannister gone, I can put an aftermarket radiator catch can in it's place, then route the air house into the engine compartment through the radiator yoke where the old radiator catch container went. The basic idea is shown in pic 7, with the hose routing shown in red. The bracket in blue will need to be modified to fit around it, but that seems straightforward. I can't route the house through the position where the charcoal cannister is because the headlight bracket is in front of it. I'll mount the windshield washer reservoir on the driver side.

One of the impetuses for this is that no matter what I come up with, I won't be able to use my cop air cleaner. At the front of the block, there's 11" between the block and the hood. 12" at the back (pic 8 ). I'm thinking of using an Indy 440-3X manifold (pic 9) that's 9" tall. So I'll have 2" to put in an elbow, and then have the EFI throttle body on the front of that, then I can route the hose to the Bounty air cleaner.

your friend in cool air,
arthur

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[sigmfsk]

I got some info from the '76 Parts Catalog, and with help from TK's photo analysis, and Bagman's CEVS experience, here's my summary. Please let me know if something sounds wrong.

'74 and '75: Had a yoke without a circular cutout in the driver side of the passenger yoke. All air cleaner models were open to the air, without an air intake duct. However many air cleaner openings there were (1 or 2), and whether civilian or police, all openings were oval.

'76 and '77: Had the yoke with cutout. A cop car could have a dual snorkel air cleaner, with two oval openings, one open to the air and the other having a duct to the yoke (as pictured in the 440 Brougham referenced in the OP, and was on restored police cars as noted by Bagman above). A civilian car had a single snorkel with a circular opening, and a duct to the radiator yoke.

Pic 1 is from the '76 Parts Catalog. It shows the duct going to the radiator yoke as part of the "electronic lean burn system".

This page
The Chrysler Lean Burn engine control system
says the system was introduced in 1976, so if the duct was truly just part of the lean burn system, then since 1975 was pre-lean-burn, it probably didn't have the duct. And TK's photo research didn't show any 1975s with a duct. And it showed all oval air cleaners for '75, except for one that had a circular opening air cleaner. So it seems a reasonable guess that this air cleaner was from a 76/77.

Regarding swapping radiator yokes. I found 3 part numbers:
'74: PN#3752450 : upto 1/2/74
'74: PN#3572700 : after 1/2/74
'76: PN#3850319

Now I'm guessing there was some minor change made during the '74 run; maybe improved strength, or a different way of stamping the metal, or maybe they changed for reduced strength (to save materials), or different suppliers, but I would think that the parts would be functionally swappable.

So its understandable that the two parts would have different part numbers ("Frank, put in the stamping dies for PN#3572700"), and understandable why Hollander would say that the parts are interchangeable.

But I don't understand how Hollander can say that a '74 and a '76 yoke are interchangeable. It seems that you could put a '74 in a '76 and everything would bolt up - except for the electronic lean burn air intake duct which wouldn't have a hole for it. I'd be quite miffed if I bought a '74 yoke to install in my '76 and then found out that it couldn't fulfill all its functional requirements. Maybe the definition of interchange is "fulfills all the major requirements; minor undocumented modifications may be required".

your friend in avoiding unwanted surprises,
arthur

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[sigmfsk]

I found some interesting pics in this thread:
moparts: Homebrew cold air intake using dual snorkel

and at this site:
About Ram Air Box

that sells
> a twin snorkel, high capacity air cleaner housing used to supply fresh air to an engine.

The setup in pics 4 and 5 looks quite effective, but I think that extreme is unwarranted on on the Monaco.

Here's an interesting article on how to inexpensively determine the best location to receive air to pipe to the air cleaner:
Browser Warning

but I think the Monaco has it going on. You can't beat simply having 6" of space in front of the radiator yoke and putting the air cleaner there - below the bottom of the radiator - but still directly in the path of the incoming air rushing through lower-grills in the bumper.

One thing I thought of doing was putting vertical panels between the grill and the radiator yoke on each side of the car in line with the edge of the bottom panel (see pic 6, lines in blue). This would create a true air box - so that all air going through the upper grille or lower grills in bumper would enter the air box. And the only way it could get out would be to go through the radiator or enter the air filter and feed the intake manifold.

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[sigmfsk]

I was thinking of placing my air intake updates to my Marin County thread, but there are some good pictures here that add context to what I'm working on, and anybody that is interested in "DIY engine cold air intakes" may be interested in this air filter info.

I received my Spectre 889605 air filter (pics 1 through 3). It's a good replacement for the Bounty paper towels.

But since I ordered that, I learned about S&B filters (pic 4). They don't seem as well advertised, and you can't even buy them from Summit, but they have a great selection of filters, including one slightly bigger than the Spectre. And the top plate is also filtered, unlike the Spectre.

Spectre 889605:
6" I.D. Inlet, 7.18" Base Tapers To 4.13" O.D., 10.55" Overall Height

S&B R0944:
6" I.D. Inlet, 7.50" Base Tapers to 5.25" O.D., 13.75" Overall Height


With all the room ahead of the radiator, I think 13.75" is the new 10.55",
arthur

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[sigmfsk]

sigmfsk said:

I think 13.75" is the new 10.55"

Oh yeah!

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[Mercer]

Found this a while ago:

Ram Air Box

Just noticed that it has been posted before...
Sorry for doubleposting.

[sigmfsk]

Mercer said:

Found this a while ago:

Ram Air Box

Just noticed that it has been posted before...
Sorry for doubleposting.

Oh, no worries Mercer. Thanks for the post. One of the things that convinced me to put an air cleaner ahead of the radiator (as compared to using something like the ram-air-box that keeps the air cleaner directly over the carb) was space restrictions (limitations above the intake manifold and below the hood). My current line-of-thinking is to use an EFI throttle body at the forward part of the intake manifold, and just connect metal tubing to the air cleaner in front of the radiator. So ram air box is out, and something like pic 1 is in. By "something", I mean "general concept of the throttle body on the front", not necessarily "fabricated entirely by hand". But you have to love those great aluminum fabrication and welding skills. The manifold is from here:
Marcella Manifolds - images
and here are some threads about his work:
Sheet metal manifold pics - Yellow Bullet Forums
Marcella Manifolds Pics - Yellow Bullet Forums

One thing I found about those conic air cleaners was that they are easily "squashed" at the open base part, meaning that they don't have to be installed on a 6" diameter tube - they could be installed on a 6" diameter metal tube that had been slightly flattened to an oval shape. This will be helpful because I have tons of vertical space ahead of the radiator and down low out of the way of the radiator, but horizontal space is around 7". As the outside diameter is slightly larger than that, a gentle squash will likely be in order.

your friend in chatting about cool clean air to the engine,
arthur

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