14 replies to this topic

[sigmfsk]

TK826 first keyed me on to Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market, and I love it. You type in what you want, and it tells you what parts are available in junk yards that are a direct fit for your car. I've had various successes with the junk yards actually having the parts that are listed, because it seems that not all keep their lists up-to-date, but the site is also good as a "poor man's" hollander interchange manual.

Based on the results supplied by Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market, I was looking at what parts from a 75-77 Monaco fit on a 74 Monaco, and I found that you could get a matching upper front control arm from a 75-77 that would fit on a '74.

But if you want a '74 lower control arm, only one from a '74 will fit. So I anticipated writing that Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market was unreliable, but it looks like this is indeed the case.

Based on my Hollander manual, a '74 monaco lower control arm is only found on a '74 monaco, imperial, or fury.

A '74-'76 Knuckle was the same, and a small block stubframe was the same 74-77, and a big block stubframe was the same 74-77, so why the unique lower control arm? Maybe a 74 arm locates the knuckle in the same place as a 75 arm, but uses different ball joints or something that makes it non-interchangeable. Or maybe they relocated things in 75 for better performance.

Anyway, a '74 monaco upper control arm was found on a '74-'76 monaco, a '77 royal monaco, '74-5 imperial, '74 fry, '75-'77 gran fury.

So a '77 non-royal monaco has a different upper control arm than a '77 royal monaco. And indeed, if you go to Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market and look for an upper control arm for a '77 monaco, it asks if you want one for a royal-monaco, or one for a non-royal monaco.

I just thought this whole thing interesting. That (1) Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market is awesome for its interchange information, and not bad about actually being used to find parts, and (2) that there are non-obvious interchange differences between years and models. I would have never guessed that a getting the royal option would result in a different upper control arm. I'm sure that's not in the brochure.

your friend in only getting parts that fit,
arthur

[MISSION]

Hey mate you wouldn't know what the differences between the big block sub frame and the small block subframe is. I'm planning on doing a 440 conversion and I'm not sure what the differences are yet.

[sigmfsk]

MISSION said:

Hey mate you wouldn't know what the differences between the big block sub frame and the small block subframe is. I'm planning on doing a 440 conversion and I'm not sure what the differences are yet.

My impression is that its just the motor mounts (based on discussions I had with these guys
70 NewYorker Viper Motor
about their work to fit a Viper engine in a New Yorker). But I really don't know. Here's a link about a guy wanting to put a big block in his 1974 Monaco with a small-block stubframe:
C-Body DryDock: Forums / General Tech / C-body LA small block to RB big block swap - K member?
> The 1974-78 C-bodies definitely use different sub frames for big blocks than they do for
> small blocks. Schumacher doesn't show a kit for spool mount C-bodies to go from small
> block to big block, but I think that the '73 and up A,B,F,M & J V8 to B/RB conversion kit
> will work for what you need to do...

A link of related interest:
C-Body DryDock: Forums / General Tech / Low down on front frame ?

Please keep us posted with what you find out,
thanks,
arthur

[TK826]

This might have something to do with the lower '74 arm being different...

Attached Files

•  1974Warning04a.jpg   359.52K   7 downloads
•  1974Warning04b.jpg   295.7K   8 downloads

[sigmfsk]

Interesting! I was thinking why would the interchange manual NOT want a 1974 owner to interchange a later 1975 good model with his bad model. And then it seemed that it is also telling a 1975 owner that he doesn't want to install a 1974 bad model into his car. Then I thought that it shouldn't be interchange information at all, and then I just didn't know. So I think your assessment is perfect:
> This might have something to do with the lower '74 arm being different...


I've seen you post those technical bulletins before (about the a-pillar molding), and I think I just found the master stash:

The 1970 Hamtramck Registry "1974 DODGE MODEL TSBs Index" Page

Here's one that made me think:
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/TSBs/1974/17-01-74D%20page1.jpg
> The rear springs on all 1974 "C" body Dodge model vehicles are of a new
> design...changes cause the springs to remain under load during removal or installation.
> ...
> Attempting to remove or install rear springs on the 1974 "C" body without the use of the
> special service tool is not recommended.

I wonder if "not recommended" means "because its harder to do that way", or if it means "because it is likely to cause grave bodily injury".

I'll read through all the monaco / c-body bulletins to ensure that I don't die due to lack of knowledge.

thanks,
arthur

[TK826]

That is the place.

Here is the original thread, from Nov...

http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles/9040-we-have-bulletin.html



"... remain under load during removal or installation."

That sounds like a quick way to visit the emergency room.

[Ghostbluesman]

TK826 said:

That is the place.

Here is the original thread, from Nov...

http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles/9040-we-have-bulletin.html



"... remain under load during removal or installation."

That sounds like a quick way to visit the emergency room.

...or the morgue....
Rob

[sigmfsk]

TK826 said:

Here is the original thread, from Nov...

Ahh, before I got rolling on the board. I've tried to use the search feature, but it seems quite limited.

If I search for sem, I get no matches, even though I know its out there.
If I search for camel, I get some matches. So lets say I want to read the surrounding text to see if the hit is worthy; the search feature doesn't provide the text surrounding the find. It provides the text at the beginning of the post.

So a "camel" search provides the following link:
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles/10217-theres-new-marin-county-sheriff-town.html#post111763
and the useless text summary:
-----
Well here's a fine how do you do. One piece of paper shows a picture of the actual kit and says:
> If this Craftsman hand tool ever fails to provide complete satisfaction, return it to any
> Sears...
-----
instead of
-----
They custom color match, so before I send them the dash, I'll dye a big spot of it SEM Camel, so that the dash will be the same color as the rest of the stuff I'll be dyeing.
-----

I'm just bellyaching, but it makes it hard for me to catch up on all the nuggets of wisdom that are hiding in the archives. There also doesn't seem to be a way to find posts that have both desired words. If I search for two words, I get posts that have either word.

I appreciate all the help getting me on the road to enlightenment,
thanks,
arthur

[Ford jockey]

MISSION said:

Hey mate you wouldn't know what the differences between the big block sub frame and the small block subframe is. I'm planning on doing a 440 conversion and I'm not sure what the differences are yet.

Try Schumacher Creative Services Seattle Wa.

http://www.engine-swaps.com/

they have pretty much enginered every combination of Mopar Engine swap known. I bought new motor mounts from then at the Chrysler Nationals. Oh you don't want poly mounts unless your racing, thats according to them.

[sigmfsk]

Ford jockey said:

...Oh you don't want poly mounts unless your racing, thats according to them.

I had a Camaro with solid motor mounts and a solid transmission mount. It seemed fine for me - but it was clearly a muscle car and not a smooth running c-body sedan.

I've read about vibrations with poly mounts:
Question Poly motor mounts - LS1LT1.com/LS3Forums.com

I was thinking about rubber Mity Mounts:
How they work

anybody have any thoughts on these? It looks like they might have the best of both worlds (rubber isolation, but solid lock upon power (and not tearing apart)).

your friend in part selection,
arthur

[sigmfsk]

sigmfsk said:

I would have never guessed that a getting the [1977] royal option would result in a different upper control arm. I'm sure that's not in the brochure.

I think I figured out what's going on here.

Unlike in 1975, in 1977 there wasn't a c-body base Monaco and a c-body Royal option. In 1977 there was a car called "Monaco base" that was a b-body, and there was a car called a "Royal Monaco" that was a c-body. So it makes sense that they have different control arms.

I attempt to summarize the this info here. The c-body Monaco's that we all know and love are (with VIN code)

1974
DH: Monaco Custom
DK: Monaco Police
DM: Monaco base
DP: Monaco Brougham
DT: Monaco Taxi

1975
DH: Royal Monaco
DK: Monaco Police
DM: Monaco base
DP: Royal Monaco Brougham
DT: Monaco Taxi

1976
same as 1975, but no DT

1977
DH: Royal Monaco Brougham
DK: Royal Monaco Police
DM: Royal Monaco base

and just to confuse the naming, 1977 also had the b-body Monaco

WH: Monaco Brougham / Monaco Crestwood
WK: Monaco Police
WL: Monaco base
WS Monaco "SS"

and 1978 also had the b-body.


For bluesmobile purposes, the 74-77 c-body Monaco's are identical from the firewall back. Actually, I recall reading somewhere on the board that Huey said that there were minor differences, but I don't think he listed what they were.

The stubframe is different for big blocks and small blocks, but is identical between the years for a given engine type.

As far as I can tell, suspension & steering components are also swappable between years.

So when this guy:
Stock Performance Front End Kit 1974-1976 Dodge Monaco: eBay Motors (item 350369437089 end time Aug-21-10 15:39:51 PDT)
advertises
Stock Performance Front End Kit 1974-1976 Dodge Monaco

he's really saying "74-76 Monaco, and the 1977 c-body Monaco called the Royal Monaco".

I think this means that I can use all the front-end suspension/brake/steering components & stubframe from my big-block 1976 Royal Monaco parts car instead of the Marin County components. Which is good news, because Marin County doesn't really excel in the working parts category.

[sigmfsk]

MISSION said:

Hey mate you wouldn't know what the differences between the big block sub frame and the small block subframe is. I'm planning on doing a 440 conversion and I'm not sure what the differences are yet.

I think the best thing is to contact this guy:
C-Body DryDock: Forums / General Tech / C-body LA small block to RB big block swap - K member?
who's putting a big block in his small-block equipped '74 Monaco.

But for what it's worth, the 74 parts catalog, page Illus. 13-2 shows the frame (pic 1) with a listing of all the "parts types". I looked for all the part types on the actual frame, and got:

frame 13-01-1
sidemember (serviced in 13-01-1)
c/member 13-10-1
c/member no. 1 13-11-5
c/member no. 2 13-11-5

So I looked up
13-01-1
13-10-1
13-11-5

and the only part type that has different part numbers is 13-01-1 (pic 2) (one part number for small block, a different part number for big block).

So if I'm reading that correctly, the actual three crossmember pieces are the same for small/big block, but the sidemembers are different. And that sounds strange to me. I would have thought that just the motor mount K-member (c/member no. 2) would be different. Maybe its the same k-member, but welded to the sidemembers in different positions for small/big block.

I still don't know the differences between small/big block stubframes, but my understanding (not gained from the parts catalog) is that the differences only manifest themselves in different motor mounts (or at least different motor mount positioning).

your friend in reading new documentation,
arthur

Attached Files

•  frame.JPG   118.13K   4 downloads
•  frame2.JPG   36.71K   3 downloads

[Ghostbluesman]

sigmfsk said:

So if I'm reading that correctly, the actual three crossmember pieces are the same for small/big block, but the sidemembers are different.

You are correct, Art...the K-member is the same; all I had to do was replace the motor mounts form the 360 with 440 versions....
Rob

[sigmfsk]

Ghostbluesman said:

You are correct, Art...the K-member is the same; all I had to do was replace the motor mounts form the 360 with 440 versions....
Rob

Oh, that's good to know. The parts catalog seems to be less than helpful on the issue. It shows the entire frame as being different for small/big block, but doesn't show the specific part (motor mounts) that causes the difference.

No matter; I think your experience rocks home the assessment that the only difference is the motor mounts.

thanks!
/arthur

[Ghostbluesman]

No problem, Art...as a matter of fact, I can post the part numbers for anyone wanting to make the swap....I think they are Moog items, but I'll check when I get home....
Rob