37 replies to this topic

[sigmfsk]

I need to get a complete set of set belts for my '74 Monaco.

Here are some places for new belts:
Beams Retro Metal Starburst<br>Retractable 3-Point
Welcome to Kanter Auto Products eCatalog page: 33

Or I can get my current hardware refurbished here:
Ssnake Oyl Products

In consideration of screen accuracy, I checked some shots in the movie, and I see that both the passenger and driver seat belt tongue has a strange toothed circle hole. Does anybody have a seat belt like that? Mine is like the embedded pic

that I got from here:
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles-sale/8461-usa-1974-chrysler-bluesmobile-pennsylvania.html#post96610

And the seat belts in the movie only appear to have the shoulder strap connected to the tongue. Isn't both the lap belt and shoulder belt designed to both be attached to the tongue?

I don't think screen accuracy is a critical design goal, as the seat belts disappear altogether at the end of the movie! But I am curious to know about the lap/shoulder attachment and toothed hole and if anybody has any stories about buying replacement belts.

thanks,
arthur

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[TI4438]

I'd be happy to get belts that match the interior when it's finished.Thanks for the info.

[sigmfsk]

I thought it would be simple to find an outfit to sell me a seat of seat-belt bolts for a 74 Monaco, but I'm finding that its not so easy.

Each side of the car has six bolts. I attach a pic. I believe that:
--the two bolts circled in red should be shoulder bolts - to attach a single swivel to the body. Upper bolt is for the hanger for the tongue on the shoulder/lap belt. The lower bolt holds the retractor for the shoulder belt.
--the two two bolts circled in dark blue are not designed for a shoulder - they solidly attach a single attachment to the body. Bolt in the front is for the lap belt retractor for the front passenger. Similar for bolt in back for rear passenger.
--the two two bolts circled in greenish blue should be shoulder bolts - to attach two swivels to the body. Bolt in the front holds two belts: one for the middle passenger, one for the outside passenger (in which the shoulder/lap belt tongue connects). Similar for bolt in back for rear passengers.

My seat belts were missing some of their hardware (such as the upper swivel for the shoulder belt), and the belts were cut (maybe the police station cut them when junking the car), so I'm having a hard time figuring out what goes where. And I think Ma Mopar might be pulling a trick on me.

I found four different types of bolts (pics attached) in the car, some loose in the carpet.
From left to right, the markings on the head of the bolt
K20: length not including thickness of bolt head: 1.35". Thickness of shoulder: 0.0"
K13: 1.45", 0.4"
K12: 1.475", 0.575"
K15: 1.575", 0.725"

I'm thinking that K20 was used for the two dark blue bolts.
But I can't figure out where the other bolts go. So I write this just to see if anybody has any thoughts.

I found some shoulder bolts that don't specify their shoulder thickness:
Seat Belt Hardware
Shoulder Bolt
XV Motorsports - Products

and I found some mopar bolts with different shoulder thicknesses:
This ad
1970-74 Mopar Challenger Cuda HT Seat Belt Bolts Kit: eBay Motors (item 330443297622 end time Jun-29-10 18:36:42 PDT)
for
1970-74 Mopar Challenger Cuda HT Seat Belt Bolts Kit
has 3 different length shoulder bolts.

While this ad
70-74 Mopar Cuda Challenger HT Seat Belt Bolts Kit: eBay Motors (item 140420439902 end time Jun-30-10 23:40:42 PDT)
for supposedly the same thing
70-74 Mopar Cuda Challenger HT Seat Belt Bolts Kit
only has 2 different length shoulder bolts.

Here's an interesting page
I need BOLTS - B Body Mopar Forums
that talks about C10, C11, C12 bolts, and links to
An Error Has Occurred!
with a picture of them.

Anybody know about MOPAR 'C' vs 'K' shoulder bolts? Or why it would matter if I found a 'C' bolt with the correct length shoulder? Anybody know what the shoulder lengths should be on a 74 Monaco? I couldn't find anything in the shop manual.

As an interesting tidbit, I found that 7/16-20 seat belt bolts are the world standard - even for metric cars

volkswagon
TheSamba.com :: View topic - 68 Beetle Seatbelt Bolt Documentation

porsche
Seat Belt shoulder bolts - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

lotus
Sheared Shoulder Pt. Seat Belt Bolt - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
> Seat belt bolts are all SAE as they are spec'ed by the DOT.

Could someone(s) see how some of the bolts in their 74-ish Monaco are marked and report back? I think the front middle lap belt bolts will be visible just out in the air. If they're not, please let me know anyway because my understanding of how the belts are mounted is probably wrong. And I think the bolt highest on the B-pillar has a pretty trim cap on it that snaps off to reveal the bolt head, so that should be easy to check.

All thoughts and information appreciated.
thanks,
arthur

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[sigmfsk]

I got a complete set of tan 74 monaco seatbelts, that I found on the awesome site
http://www.car-part.com/
I've found that its hit and miss whether the parts listed are actually still there (I've called some places, and they've said that they crushed the car in question years ago), but it certainly worked great for these seat belts. I also find it useful to determine interchange information - based on the year, make, and model cars that are returned for various parts.

I really needed a complete set of belts, as my set was missing hardware, but I also liked that the buckles are tan - I'm not sure how a dyed part would hold up in the rough environment of buckling and unbuckling.

I called the following places about rewebbing, and got some rough quotes:
Ssnake Oyl Products
6 * $95 for retractors
2 * $75 for each middle seat
$720 total

http://www.seatbeltsolutions.com/
6 * $75 for retractors
2 * $40 for each middle seat
$530 total

Upholstery Mods & More
$450 total

Here's some links about the owner:
B Body Mopar Forums - View Single Post - 1968-69 B-Body, 2-dr. Black Seat Belt Set
moparts: Mopar Businesses Services

and don't forget!
moparts: PG Classic Seat Belts - Safe to Use?
> Bill Edwards [email protected] 931-703-8666 moparts members get 10% discount

I had these places on my list:
Seatbelt Restoration*::*Mustang Parts & Accessories Superstore - 1800Mustang
Refurbishment, Restoration and Webbing Replacement - Seatbeltplanet | The Worldwide Authority on Aftermarket Seatbelts
but after I spoke with Bill, I stopped calling. I can't imagine anyone providing better service.

The first part of the conversation was a little strange, because after I told him I was working on a 74 Monaco, I kept trying to tell him how many retractors there were (because all the other businesses wanted to know), and he just kept saying "all I need to know is the color", which wasn't asked at all by the other places. Eventually I asked him if the color made a price difference, and he explained yes, because he used NOS webbing, and not reproduction webbing, and black was cheaper. I told him tan, and he said he'd send me out some samples.

I asked him about the seat belt bolts, and he said that he includes a complete set of bolts with the re-webbing, with instructions where each goes. I thought, surely this guy doesn't know the trouble I've had finding out about these bolts, and he then explained that Mopar used "C" bolts through 1973, and the head was slightly domed, and then starting in 1974 they used "K" bolts with a flat head, and that the shoulder length of a C12 was the same as a K12, for example, and that a K12 would be used, for example, for the lap-belts on the center hump of a 1974. And he continued that he included the felt washers that go between the lap belt mounting plates for anti-rattle purposes, and he included date-coded labels on the belts. And that the original belts were 2" wide, whereas the reproduction belts are only 1 15/16" wide. He was very matter-of-fact, and it was just amazing. I may have represented some of the statements incorrectly because he was talking so fast, and I was just in stunned silence, but it was clear that he knew his business, and that I'll have all the info I need to get replacement bolts, and know where they go. I'll post more after I send them in and get them back.

your friend in great service at reasonable prices,
arthur

[TK826]

Nice work sig.

And, very cool that you found someone with such knowledge about the belts.
It's great when you find sellers who know what you are talking about.
It makes things so much easier.

Did you speak to him about the "toothed" seatbelt clip / tongue ?

[sigmfsk]

TK826 said:

Did you speak to him about the "toothed" seatbelt clip / tongue ?

No, I didn't even think of that - but I appreciate the reminder! I'll be sure to ask him about it. I can't see how that shoulder harness tongue shown in the movie would really be useful, because the lap belt is not attached to it. But I think if anyone would know what-car / what-type-of-belt that particular tongue may have come from, Bill would.

[sigmfsk]

Bill said the toothed connectors were common early 70's Mopar. The lap belt had a stud on it, and the toothed connector would attach to the stud.

This site
www.andoverrestraints.com
under "Seat Belt Facts" says
> 1974
> NHTSA requires 3-point belt non-detachable shoulder straps in front outboard positions.

It looks like for 73 and earlier, the shoulder harness would connect to the lap belt.
And for 74 and later, the shoulder harness connector and lap-belt connector became one.

I went through many early 70's Mopars for sale on e-bay and attach some pics.

pic1: 72 challenger
pic2: 72 challenger
pic3: 72 charger
pic4: 73 charger
pic5: 73 road runner
pic6: 73 fury
pic7: 74 challenger

So the belts in the movie had to be from a 1973 or earlier car. And it looks like they were Mopar belts. Does anybody have pics of seat belts from a 1973 Monaco? Since Monaco body styles changed between 1973 and 1974, there might not be any toothed-connector belts that are actually usable in a 1974 Monaco. I'll keep researching.

thanks,
arthur

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[Bagman]

Sorry, just saw this thread. I could have helped you with the bolts as I disassembled the upper bolt area when I removed the inside b-pillar trim to get my car painted. Let me know if you still need any info on the 74 seat belts part numbers.

[sigmfsk]

Bagman said:

Sorry, just saw this thread. I could have helped you with the bolts as I disassembled the upper bolt area when I removed the inside b-pillar trim to get my car painted. Let me know if you still need any info on the 74 seat belts part numbers.

Yes, please! Here's what I have so far:

upper red: K12 : 70% confidence
lower red: ?
left blue: K20 (no shoulder) : 95% confidence
right blue: K20 (no shoulder): 95% confidence
left green: ?
right green: ?

I think the seat-belt repair guy can figure out the greens - at least well enough to make things work - they just need a shoulder that will fit two lap-belts. But the red's involve Monaco specific interior trim.

Can you check on your red's? The upper one is a piece of cake - the lower needs the two screws from the rotating retractor cover removed to leave the bolt head visible.

And the left green should be easy - the front middle lap belt. I'm thinking each side of the hump will have the same bolt marking.

Anything you can provide is appreciated.

thanks,
arthur

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[sigmfsk]

Summary from posts in this thread:

- In the movie, sometimes the bluesmobile does not have seatbelts.
- When it does have seatbelts (which is most of the time), the shoulder tongue is from a pre-1974 Mopar. We know its pre-1974 because in 1974 US cars could not have detachable shoulder harnesses. We know its a Mopar shoulder harness because it looks the same as that found in many pre-1974 Mopars. Pics 1 through 3 are of some hardware that Bill has that look like that used in the movie.

I considered using a detachable shoulder belt, but elected against it, because:
1) The 1974 Monaco was a new body style, so I could not simply install a stock 1973 Monaco seatbelt set and expect it to fit. There would be no guarantee that all my work would pay off, because I may end up with a set of seat-belts that looked movie accurate, but couldn't actually be used.
2) The Texas Mile rules state:
> Correctly installed factory seat belts, OEM or better, is the minimum standard

It doesn't make an allowance for "Seat belts that have been fabricated from parts of cars across different years, using detachable shoulder belts that were illegal for the year of the car, even if they are Bluesmobile screen accurate"

So I simply rewebbed 1974 Monaco belts, using 1974 hardware. Pic 4 show's Bills handiwork, and I'm quite pleased with it.

The upper two belt samples are from Bill, and I chose the color on the right. The left color seems too dark for the belts in the movie (although this is only a small concern, keeping in mind that the movie had belts that could never come on a 1974 Monaco). The right color seems a tad lighter than that used in the movie, but it looks the same color as king-of-the-hill (pic 5), so that's what I picked.

The lower samples are from Ssnake Oyl. Notice that the Ssnake Oyl samples are not as wide as the NOS material that Bill used. Before sending in my belts, I verified that Bill's samples matched the original Monaco webbing. He fixed up the retractors, and provided a set of bolts for the car - cleaned and coated - they look like new. I believe the bolt set may work well, although I'm not sure that the bolts are exactly what was provided on an original 1974 Monaco. I expect that a 1976 Monaco will use the same seat-belt bolts as a 1974, so once I receive
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles-sale/10887-usa-1976-royal-monaco-colorado.html
I should have a solid set of seat-belt bolt information.

your friend in putting seat-belt safety first,
arthur

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[TK826]

Check it out.

Looking through my files I found this...

This is the '74 Monaco that would eventually become the Bluesmobile, in the "Mt. Prospect Blues Bar".

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[sigmfsk]

TK826 said:

Check it out...

Ooooh, this is freaking me out.

So this Monaco had detachable shoulder belts - that supposedly were not available on any 1974 car in the USA. The Monaco in the picture doesn't have wood paneling on the rear door. Was it a police car? Maybe some police cars had exceptions?

page 22 of the Dodge Dealer Data Book
The 1970 Hamtramck Registry - 1974 Dodge Dealership Data Book - Polara
says
> Dodge makes it easy for the driver and right front-seat passenger to fasten their safety
> belts in 1974 by combining lap and shoulder belts. One buckle fastens both belts.

but we know that special order cars could get things not described in the documentation.

For example, the same book, page 23 says
> Windshield-mounted inside rearbiew mirror. Standard on hardtops and sedans, this
> mirror provides more vertical adjustment to improve rearward vision.

but here
http://www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/bluesmobiles/8170-quick-question.html#post94650
Huey notes
> Rear view mirror was mounted to the windshield on 74's with the exception of special
> order cars that had the solid mounts. 99% of 74's had the windshield mount. So that
> would be rare if you have the solid mount.

My Marin County belts were the standard Monaco non-detachable type, so it's not the situation that all police cars came with detachable belts.

Maybe the first '74s off the assembly line had detachable, and then they changed to one-piece early on? Or maybe just some of the first police '74s?

> This is the '74 Monaco that would eventually become the Bluesmobile, in the "Mt. Prospect Blues Bar".
Is this a static display in the bar? Do we know the VIN?

What a crazy situation!

[TK826]

It is in fact an ex-police car.

I kinda' feel sorry for it.

A 440 w/ all the bells and whistles, now forever encased in a tomb.
A very nice tomb... but static all the same.

[sigmfsk]

The ex-police 1974 Monaco in the "Mt. Prospect Blues Bar" has detachable shoulder belts - which I'm guessing were originally installed, which makes me think that the belts in the movie weren't just hollywood cobbled-together setups, but instead actual ex-police seatbelt setups.

Earlier, I was wondering why the movie folks would go through the trouble of discarding their original 1974 non-detachable belts to install never-possible detachable belts. But now it looks like they just used the belts the ex-police cars had, and they had detachable, just like Mt. Prospect Blues Bar ex-police car.

Here's where the spirit of the blues needs to guide me - for my bluesmobile. All things being equal, I'd want to figure out exactly how/why the movie bluesmobile had detachable shoulder belts, and try to duplicate the same thing. But, I also have a goal of running the Texas Mile in my bluesmobile, which requires OEM belts or better. And regardless of what I might find about these mysterious detachable belts, I'm sure it won't be particularly convincing to the tech officials. If they state that all 1974 Dodge Monacos came with non-detachable shoulder belts, then I won't get to run without them.

Since I'm not going to pursue non-detachable for my car, I'm not going to road-trip to Mt. Prospect Blues Bar this weekend to try and get more info, but I will try and get some pics during Bluesmobile Reunion 2011!

thanks,
arthur

[scatpack01]

I bought a 74 Plymouth Satellite but it only has the lap belt. There is no attaching points in the roof.

I thought by 74 the cars would have the 3 point belts.

[sigmfsk]

scatpack01 said:

I bought a 74 Plymouth Satellite but it only has the lap belt. There is no attaching points in the roof.

Well the nutty just gets nuttier.

This site
www.andoverrestraints.com
under "Seat Belt Facts" says
> 1974
> NHTSA requires 3-point belt non-detachable shoulder straps in front outboard positions.

And the "1974 Plymouth Dealer Data Book" for "What's New for 1974" for the Satellite, page 30, says "Shoulder and lap belts for driver and right front-seat passenger are fastened by a single buckle."
The 1970 Hamtramck Registry - 1974 Plymouth Dealership Data Book - Satellite

Here's a 1974 Plymouth Satellite for sale that shows a non-detachable shoulder belt:
Plymouth : Satellite: eBay Motors (item 300452730923 end time Aug-14-10 10:00:00 PDT)

Maybe there are some roof attachment points hiding up there. I would think even it didn't have the normal 1974 non-detachable belt, at least it would have some type of shoulder belt. But this whole belt situation makes me question my sanity.

[sigmfsk]

pics of 1974 plymouth satellite on e-bay referenced in previous post

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[scatpack01]

here is my car

it's gonna be Daisy's Road Runner from the Dukes....for my Daisy.

[country bunker]

I see where all the cars are going! Scats grabbin em all!!! hahaha. Cool car scat!

[scatpack01]

thanks.