5 replies to this topic

[sigmfsk]

Referencing
Kit c e n t r a l :: View topic - Dodge Viper V10
> Overall dimensions of the Viper engine are: top to bottom - 26", front to rear - 34-1/2", width across the valve covers - 23".

and
http://www.kabamus.com/garage/motorswap/swapchart.pdf

I list the dimensions of the viper engine and the dodge 440

top to bottom: viper: 26", 440: 30.5"
front to rear: viper: 34.5", 440: 29"
width across valve covers: viper: 23", 440: 20.5"

I'm curious if the viper engine will physically fit within the stock engine compartment of a 1974 Monaco, or if the firewall would need to be moved back.

It looks from pictures of engine compartments that there's the needed 5.5" of extra length available under the hood, but maybe the limiting factor is where the sump will sit.

I see here
Engines: Swaps: Big Block Swap
that c-bodies used a center-sump oil pan:
> Use a production C-body or R-body center sump oil pan.

and that you can get a viper oil pan with a rear sump
DODGE HERO: 1999 Dodge Durago Viper V10 Engine - Heavy Metal Mudder
> Arrow Racing Engines...was our number-one source for getting everything from the correct SRT-10 throttle body to the rear sump oil pan.
[pic rear-sump.jpg]

a front-ish sump
Dodge Viper Oil Pan Baffle
[pic front-sump.jpg]

Gen 2 (2001) Dodge Viper Engine and Trans Package : eBay Motors (item 290385703321 end time Mar-28-10 10:31:18 PDT)
[pic front-sump2.jpg]

and a center sump
06 Dodge Ram SRT-10 Viper Engine AUTO Trans V10 15K : eBay Motors (item 310208159963 end time Mar-29-10 14:01:07 PDT)
[pic center-sump.jpg]

Does the center sump hang between the steering linkage (which is behind the sump) and the subframe (which is forward of the sump)? That subframe portion might be called the k-member, but from what I can gather its not removable on a c-body. You can tell I'm a Chevy guy; I've never worked on a Mopar. Maybe a small-block k-member-subframe would actually provide better clearance than a big-block k-member subframe? But a notch here or there is the least of my worries; I'm trying to see the big picture on engine compartment.

It might seem that I'm getting ahead of myself, but whether or not the viper engine would require moving the firewall may have an impact on what Monaco I end up getting. If the firewall doesn't need to be moved, I'd prefer to get one that has air conditioning. But if I have to cut the firewall and redo the A/C box, maybe not starting with A/C isn't that big of a loss.

To answer the obvious question of "why consider the viper engine instead of building a strong 440", the answer is I'm just tired of v-belts flying off and carb jet tuning and want the easy starting and performance of EFI. And if I'm going to go with multiport, I might as well stick in a big gun.

If anyone has a Monaco and a tape measure that could send some measurements, it sure would be appreciated. Even just general pics of the engine compartment above and below would be great.

I'm thinking the following measurements would be helpful:
back of engine block to radiator
location of sump in oil pan - something similar to
Mopar Oil Pans

back of engine block to front of steering linkage
back of engine block to rear of k-member
(to get an idea of where the sump can hang in that space)
Maybe the steering linkage location isn't that critical. In that oil pan link above, a fellow modified his to work around the sump (without changing steering geometry) - see Update September 2005.

Or maybe there's a handy reference document that could answer some of my newbie questions. Thoughts appreciated.

your friend in riding in a bluesmobile,
or working on a bluesmobile,
or at least talking about a bluesmobile,
arthur

Attached Files

•  rear-sump.jpg   84.46K   7 downloads
•  front-sump.JPG   158.69K   6 downloads
•  front-sump2.JPG   37.96K   5 downloads
•  center-sump.jpg   87.38K   5 downloads

[TI4438]

I definately hope you can pull this off.Good luck and keep us posted.

[Ghostbluesman]

Keep in mind that the oil can be "remotely sumped" if needed; I've seen oil pickup tube extenders for pans that have the sump in the front, or rear, depending on the setup....contact with the centerlink/suspension parts and/or clearance being the major concern with this type of swap.
Rob

[scatpack01]

Why not build a big block with March serpentine pulleys and a SMPI set up?
this is with a 360 crate motor but you could do the same with a 440
Mopar Action On-line - Tech Archives
it will be a lot easier than a Viper engine
just my opinion

[scatpack01]

check this link out for fuel injection. can add it to a stock 440
Fuel Air Spark Technology? - The Leading Name in Fuel Injection - EZ-EFI®, XFI?, Air Fuel Meters, Distributors, Alternators, Fuel Injectors, Intake Manifolds, Big Mouth 92mm Throttle Bodies?

[sigmfsk]

Hi Scatpack:
Your 440/EFI suggestion has been growing on me the last few days. I think by this weekend I'll be convinced.


Here are some articles on putting a viper into late 1960's / early 1970's mopars:

1968 Dodge Charger - Featured Vehicles - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

http://www.delaneyautodesign.com/showArticle.cfm?id=10

V-10 Dodge Challenger- Mopar Muscle Magazine

1970 Dodge Challenger - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

1971 Dodge Challenger Convertible Viper V10 - Mopar Muscle Magazine

1971 Dodge Challenger Vert With Viper V10 - Challenger Blog

and a Dodge Durango

1999 Dodge Durago Performance Parts Preparation - 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine

but maybe most interesting, a 1970's New Yorker

C-Body DryDock: Forums / Mopar Stuff Wanted / 1970 New Yorker Dash pad Needed

70 NewYorker Viper Motor

The New Yorker effort, started in 2006, hasn't progressed beyond the pictures on the web-site (waiting for customer funds to continue).

A big issue for these swaps seems to be the steering. The engine is very tall, with a lot of skirting under the crank. Some swaps ended up using rack & pinion, and another used a custom bell-crank system. And there are quotes such as
"...took over 1,000-plus man-hours..."
"...requires a higher-than-normal engine mounting location..."
that give pause.

And it seems that aftermarket support for ECM programming is stunningly less common for these engines than the Chevy LS engines (for which I'm more familiar).

After thinking things through, it seems that a 440/EFI (along with an overdrive transmission) is the way to go for two reasons:
1) I want a rugged mostly stock steering setup
2) I don't want a super expensive car that I'm afraid to leave parked somewhere. This is for a daily driver.

For the EFI, I see some interesting options:
Chrysler Big Block EFI System
Chrysler Big Block EFI System [CRYBB] - $3,749.99 : Mass-Flo EFI, Inc., Mass Air Fuel Injection Systems!

referenced in this article
Mopar Mass-Flo Fuel Injection System - Mopar Muscle Magazine

EFI - Pro-Flo XT - Chrysler
Edelbrock.com - Electronic Fuel Injection - Pro-Flow XT - Chrysler
referenced in this article
Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT - Comp Cams - Hot Rod Magazine

Edelbrock also has

Edelbrock.com - EFI - Pro-Flo®2 EFI Systems - Chrysler


Holley Commander 950 MPFI Systems
Holley 534-183 - Holley Commander 950 MPFI Systems - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Here a nice summary of options:
Standalone EFI Systems - Hot Rod Magazine

I like that Edelbrock includes a distributor, the logic of which is connected to the EFI brains for true sequential fuel pulse operation.

I found F.A.S.T's web-site to be less than optimal in the navigation department, but they have the EZ-EFI and XFI - the XFI has the connected logic distributor:

FAST: Dual-Sync Billet Distributor, Mopar "RB" Hemi Big Block, 426-440

FAST™ Dual-Sync Distributors Deliver Precise, Reliable Timing Solution

Here's a 440 that uses the EZ-EFI

Precision Race Engines - High Performance Crate Engines Fuel Injected 440 Mopar Stroker Turn Key 500cid Crate Engine - English

and one with XFI

Chrysler Mopar 440 Stroker EFI Complete Crate Engine : eBay Motors (item 120470465790 end time Apr-14-10 12:34:45 PDT)

Seems a bummer that this is more expensive than a used Dodge RAM-SRT 10 Viper engine, overdrive transmission, and ECM, but the entire total cost of the effort must be considered.

For the transmission, it seems easy enough to replace the 727 with a 518:
Mopar Overdrive Transmission Swap, Swap in an Overdrive, Hot Rod article, Performance article

but the best deal in town seems to be a Keisler kit that uses a GM 4L65E that bolts right up to the back of the 440 and has its own transmission controller.

Mopar Automatic Overdrive Stage 2 (550 LB-FT) Basic Kit | Keisler 4-Speed Automatic Overdrive System | 1970-1974 | E-Body | Mopar | Keisler Engineering, Inc | Keisler Engineering - KeislerAuto.com

A possible alternative is Keisler's new Chrysler overdrive trans conversion kit, which uses a more compact GM 4L65E four-speed automatic with an aftermarket standalone trans-controller.

Engine Swap - A518 Transmission - Hot Rod Magazine

Keisler's A-41 automatic is based on a reworked Hydramatic 4L65E, which uses a removable bellhousing. Keisler cast bellhousings to mate the trans to big and small Mopars...

1971 Plymouth Barracuda - Keisler's 6.1L Hemi-Powered Muscle Car Project - Hot Rod Magazine

And it has a mechanical speedo output, and can connect to the TPS of EFI:

Mated to the new engine is Keisler's state of the art A-41 Electronic Controlled Automatic transmission. The A-41 is based on a heavily reworked and dyne tested 4L65E Hydramatic. This particular transmission, which is found in late model LS and Vortec equipped cars and trucks, has a divorced bellhousing. Keisler casts new bellhousings for this transmission to mate it up to small, big block Mopar engines... Other changes include dual mechanical & electronic speedometer extension housing...TPS sensor with mounting bracket and cable that connects to the carb (or alternatively the throttle body TPS can be used, as was with the Kuda),

Page-3 | A History of The Maximum Overdrive Kuda | Keisler Engineering - KeislerAuto.com

So it seems that I won't be using a viper engine, so don't need to move the firewall, so can look for a Monaco with air conditioning.

thanks for the ideas and links,
arthur